Talk:Observation
Where does Dagda ever say or imply that his world is more individualistic? "Dagda and the Anarchy-Neutral route's ultimate goal is to make Observation redundant by transforming humanity into gods with an inherent understanding of the world so that they will never rely on others as a crutch and be more individualistic and free." Individualism and being free of others only ever seems to be used in the context of Nanashi letting go of his friends, not in the ideal world that Dagda envisions. Humans will be gods, yes, but he never once states that his world will be more individualistic. The very text used to argue this has him saying the complete opposite: Danu: Enough of this, Dagda. The Cosmic Egg must be destroyed. Dagda: That's YOUR solution, Mother. Danu: This world is home to countless deities and just as many different world views. We need to embrace that diversity for the betterment of all life. Only then can humans search for answers where there might otherwise be none, and foster their own growth and development. Dagda: Finding their own answers, huh? Well, can't say I disagree with that. Trouble is, everything else you said is utter nonsense. Embrace the diversity of the deities? Each single idea of theirs is itself toxic. Such narrow-minded views need to be eradicated. Human evolution can only be made possible by casting away their imperfect selves. Danu: You want humans to become gods. Do you have any idea what that would mean? Dagda: "Gods" is just a word, Mother. Point is, humans must become more than human. Whatever word you use, the important thing is that humans answer only to themselves. That they find a future governed by their own free will, as one with the universe. This evolution, this true freedom -- it is my gift to humanity. But first, I must erase the deities of old and tear down this broken, aging universe. Danu: Your proposed new world would change what it means to be human. Do you not see that their relationship to others is what makes them human? Hallelujah: Danu is right. I'm half-demon, but I'll never stop being human. Gaston: Regrettably, I agree with Hallelujah. We Samurai exist for the people-- for the sake of others. I simply cannot fathom how the existence of others would lead to one's ruin. Navarre: I couldn't have put it better myself, brother. Even though I was just about to. Hallelujah: ... Yeah? Navarre: O-of course! What are you accusing me of! > Nozomi bursts out laughing, amused by Navarre and Hallelujah. > Still smiling, Nozomi turns to you. Nozomi: What about you? What do you think, after all this time with us? Wasn't it rewarding to have each other's backs? Dagda's scheme ignores how important, how meaningful, friends can be. It also devalues all that we've accomplished together, as friends. If even just one small part of you treasures any of that... Then let's stop Dagda. Isabeau: As Dagda said, we are not perfect. But we came this far. Is it not because we helped one another? Toki: Whatever choice you make, I'll be with you. I need you. I want to become strong with you. Danu: It seems we cannot see eye to eye, Dagda. As much as it pains me, we must end this. I will help destroy the Cosmic Egg. At all cost. Dagda: Have you forgotten what existence once meant for us, Mother? To be the rolling wind itself? To be the rain falling upon the earth? Look at us now. Pure nature forced to become Dagda and Danu. Danu: We changed because humanity gained new understanding. Is that really so bad? Dagda: That doesn't matter, Mother. This is about how far we've wandered from what we were. The "understanding" YHVH granted humanity is what locked us in these god-shaped shells. The longer we stay like this, the further we get from the essence of what we were. We need to become one with nature again. Danu: I understand how you feel, son. Truly. But I cannot allow you to do this. And if you will not change your mind, I have no choice but to stop you myself. Dagda: Can you really not live without others, kid? Can you not fend for yourself? No. You have a hidden strength--the power to find a path where none exists. Don't let sentiment blind you. These so-called friends only hold you back. Join me. In my new universe. The time is now. Choose. He's only ever speaking of Nanashi as an individual, he never says "purely individualistic" in his new universe, heck, I never see him suggest his universe will be more individualistic. Being one with the universe seems like collectivistic and the implication and outright statements are humans as a whole and not each individual... Is there something I'm not getting from this? The Truthful Knight (talk) 19:55, December 19, 2016 (UTC) The Truthful Knight (talk) 19:55, December 19, 2016 (UTC) :He says it right there that he doesn't disagree that humans should find their own answers, which being one with the universe would be unneeded in collectivism. He is also disgusted at humans working together as groups whether it's to compensate for their weakness like in the Humanity Hordes, or how they allow their mob mentality to amplify their hostility when confronting Nanashi who freed Krishna. He thinks all this of Nanashi because he is human, and that by default means he can be better than YHVH cause he is still human at his core. This is pointed out in the third choice in the Satan battle where you pick nothing. Even as a new humanity, they will still retain their humanity and thus not be enslaved to the rules of the cosmos like demons and Gods strictly are. Nor does he ever say he plans to remove emotion like Hikawa wanted for Shijima's collectivism where they are one with the universe. And those who oppose him due so because of their attachment to others, their collective desire to remain as they are. Satan will even say freedom will be found in a new universe, and collectivism is strictly about people being tied down to others. :You also seemed to have missed the point that Collectivism is of the Light-Neutral route specifically. Humans are slaves to God, requiring dependence and collectivism because YHVH wanted humans to be weak and rely on His Law and Order. That's why he created the Covenant - Language to keep humans under his control and prevent the collective ideas born in this universe of dependence from manifesting at full strength. The difference is that humanity wants to rely on said attachments to others too much on one route(But RETSIN enough individuality to remove their bond to YHVH), while Dagda wants humans to rely on themselves more in the Dark-Neutral route (But have enough attachment that the bond with someone else can be preserved such as the Goddess). He shows this through Nanashi, who is human and because of his humanity can be more. :Even then as they point out in the artbook Dagda doesn't want humans to see at all. This means they wouldn't be able to collectively share ideas/the ideas are already known due to their godly power so they never need to talk about it. Sometimes there is more than one way to look at things. JupiterKnight (talk) 22:28, December 19, 2016 (UTC) ::Also I'll add that it never says they'll be purely individualistic anywhere on the page itself. Only that they'll be more individualistic, which due to being universe with different rules can mean anything because we don't see beyond it.JupiterKnight (talk) 22:40, December 19, 2016 (UTC) ::While Dagda is disgusted by groups, he only ever argues this point under the basis that influence is a poison. Humans governing themselves as one with the universe seems to be entirely collectivistic as a concept. Dagda didn't want Nanashi to be dependent on friends because his plan required Nanashi being willing to end the universe. That's the only context I've seen Dagda speak on this. When he speaks of imperfect humans, he seems to imply collectivism since humans will govern themselves and be one with the universe. During Dagda and Danu's conversations early in the story, he only ever says that Nanashi should put aside dependencies and become something more -- implying Nanashi will ascend to godhood as he does later in the story if you pick Dagda. I hope this is not coming off as stubbornness, I replayed the entire game and I never came across Dagda even implying this. The dialogue with the friends about friendship being devalued, I had thought, just meant keeping the universe intact and all their work done to help others -- not a world made to be more individualized. In fact, Nanashi's response to Lucifer, that increases his points for Dagda's route is, "A sublime world with no ambiguity" -- i.e. a world without extremes. Both Dagda and Danu are against extremes. ::Edit: Lucifer never says a sublime world with no ambiguity is individualistic either; as proof: ::He just says it'll be long and difficult to tread, same as Merkabah for a world without bias. ::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FthCpYbNZw&t=27m53s ::The Truthful Knight (talk) 01:10, December 20, 2016 (UTC) :::Indeed he didn't I got that by mistake since he's been beaten quickly on my following playthroughs, but the thing both Merkabah and Lucifer don't deny is that such a world is hardship and struggle. That said, Lucifer never said such a world is one without chaos, Which is what I recalled incorrectly, while Merkabah is the opposite and says it lacks stability. Dagda's words are still clear towards Nanashi to be independent and free because of his humanity. By itself it'd be fine, but a Creator is the one who defines the world. YHVH is dependent on human Observation/Belief and made a universe that is based around that dependency. He made humans dependent on his Law and Order just as much as they depend on him. In Nanashi's world while he still needs to live as the Creator, his children won't have to depend on him to the same level because they weren't made that weak. Naturally they'll fight against invading Messiahs as the Goddesses imply. There's also the fact that the Cycle of Law and Chaos is part of the Natural Universe and so is Transmigration, so inevitably conflict will arise because the people aren't a mindless collective. It just won't be extreme like YHVH's Law vs Chaos was. Both of these points mentioned by Satan and Krishna rather than Dagda. Plus if humans are a collective then theybaren't really free, which misses the point of what Satan says. Even Nanashi can choose Freedom and that it will make him debuff Nanashi(I believe) since he has to show he has the strength to protect the freedom of the new universe. :::I'm sorry if I'm not getting this across right, but the idea is that they are less dependent on others, which was Dagda's goal at least.JupiterKnight (talk) 02:13, December 20, 2016 (UTC) :::Right, but the context is only ever Dagda arguing against gods abusing humans. Satan and Krishna do mention that Order and Chaos will continue but it won't be as extreme -- possible that violence won't ever happen amongst the humans themselves in a world without bias and ambiguity/prejudice and extremes -- what I don't get is, and I've played the Anarchy route twice now because I argued with Bunkerman about this idea of extreme individualism -- I looked through the dialogue and I never saw any hint at this idea that it'd be more individualistic. Dagda calls human sympathy a contagion, he admonishes groups, and he tells Nanashi to let go of dependencies but how is that implying that his world is going to be more individualistic? Where in the dialogue is this supported? Dagda's chief argument is that "Influence is a poison", if he had followed that with a spiel about his new universe then I could agree with this, but he instead talks about how he and Nanashi should strive to be true individuals, he doesn't say that it'll be part of his new universe. :::Here, I even jotted it down: ::: Krishna: And I thought humans had free will? Nothing will change the fact that it was you who broke the seal. But I suppose it was this free will that allowed him to hide all of this from you. Hmm . . . Will you still be able to trust him? Hallelujah: Leader . . . I . . . > Hallelujah nervously flashes you a look of sympathy. Gaston: A pawn of the demons . . . > Gaston shoots you a venomous glance. Asahi: He's turning everyone against us . . . What should we do, Nanashi? > Asahi buries her head in her hands. Nozomi: This is bad . . . Your little secret isn't going over so well, (name). Was this Krishna's plan all along? > Nozomi glares at Krishna. Krishna: How fragile . . . Are these the limits of human trust? Dagda: Now do you see, kid? Friendship is a joke. Abandoned at the first sign of trouble. Making friends is a pointless exercise, an inevitable disappointment. It's sickening. Influence is a poison. We should strive to be true individuals, to think freely for ourselves. :::He's clearly arguing this point so that Nanashi no longer relies on his friends and instead chooses to make a new universe by sacrificing them and the rest of Tokyo. His plan obviously won't be possible if Nanashi stays attached to his friends. :::His argument against YHVH was denouncing Original Sin since YHVH demands they atone. YHVH even responds by saying Nanashi will eternally suffer for his crimes during the battle. :::If you can show me any game text that has Dagda implying what is being stated in the wiki or if you can share the text from the artbook. From what I recall, the creators called the Dagda path a good ending, so I fail to see how it's "dark" neutral. :::The Truthful Knight (talk) 03:28, December 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::That's what individualism is. To be self-reliant and depend more on one's self rather than depend on others. He chose a path of his own where he relies on himself to do what's right rather than depend on everyone else, even if it puts him as an individual against the collective masses, which it does. Dagda makes it clear when they confront Vishnu-Flynn who doesn't understand the difference between the two. Dagda says it clear: Nanashi chose of his own free will to be more free and depend on himself, while Flynn didn't have any choice at all in his current fate. Dagda himself was constantly egging Nanashi to do what he wants and chose for himself rather thsn depend on others for his choices. Friends are a part of the problem as friends can hold one back, which is also Dagdas point and why he complains when they're joking instead of being serious especially when the people they supposedly care about are dead/danger. Mitra-Buddha even complains about him not relying on others during their fight if he has a lot of Dark Points and chooses himself. Even then just like the characters sever their bond with YHVH however long that may last on Light-Neutral, so too does Nanashi retain his bond with a partner/Goddess to show how both endings embrace the opposite view to a small extent. ::::Satan makes it very clear he means freedom as in actual freedom, not Original Sin because he never brings it up in the fight with YHVH. He's talking about how the coming change brings genuine freedom and choice over the repetition YHVH has enforced. Even Stephen mentions true freedom. ::::It's confirmed the choices aligned to Dagda's route get Dark Points. Dark does not equal bad/evil just like Light doesn't equal good as we've seen with demons. Peace/Bonds and Anarchy/Massacre seem to be fandom names anyways and they aren't called Dagda/Danu route either. Ingame they are both neutral.JupiterKnight (talk) 04:44, December 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::Dagda's response is to the line "you must atone for your sins", and Dagda adds "I will not settle for less playing by your rules." and considering YHVH follows it up with the Sermon on the Mount, it seemed clear that Dagda was condemning the very concept of original sin as a farce. Anyway... getting back to the initial discussion, none of that implies Dagda's new universe will have more individualized people. He just wanted Nanashi to be more individualistic to get him to cooperate with remaking the world. That makes sense, since his goal requires the use of human souls and the mass death of the current humans. I just never saw any indication, from the dialogue, that Dagda wanted his new universe to be more individualistic. I can elaborate further, I hope I'm not coming off as obstinate. That isn't my intention and I apologize if that's how it seems... The Truthful Knight (talk) 05:39, December 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Ah I thought you meant Satan, not Dagda. I thinks it's more that people come to different conclusions from the same dialogue. As Dagda says himself he wants humans to find their own answers with their own free will, while as one with the universe. To someone like me that reads as Individualism because people will act on their own wants and needs rather than the universe, and the fact that the Creator God reflects the current universe. YHVH depends on human observation, so he made humans dependent on him, Nanashi is a individualistic god, so by that logic should also make humans more individualistic, but well we don't know how far this goes because it ends before that. Some see the worst, others see the best.JupiterKnight (talk) 05:51, December 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Thing is, beyond humans being more like gods, we never got any implications of individualism in Dagda's world. The devaluing of friends and helping each other I took to mean the problems of the current universe. There's nothing to support the idea of a more individualistic universe. Dagda himself contradicts this. It's just a universe without gods/demons, humans being one with the universe easily able to understand observation, and having god-like powers. There's also the implication they won't be in flesh bodies, but that's about it. The Truthful Knight (talk) 20:02, December 21, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::Except he talks about humans finding their own answers and following their own free will in the new universe. Being in tuned with the universe doesn't mean they'll be bound to the collective like demons and current humans are, because humans potentially can be more than that and can find their own answers. Satan himself points out the universe will be one of freedom, which is tied more into being more independent and relying on oneself, with the extremes of that resulting in the Chaos seen in most mainline games. Even during the battle against Satan Nanashi can choose Freedom as his choice, which shows that if he's following his own freedom just like the new humanity will embrace their own freedom and free will. JupiterKnight (talk) 20:21, December 21, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::But he does say they'll govern themselves. This is explicit. ::::::::Dagda: "Gods" is just a word, Mother. Point is, humans must become more than human. Whatever word you use, the important thing is that humans answer only to themselves. That they find a future governed by their own free will, as one with the universe. This evolution, this true freedom -- it is my gift to humanity. But first, I must erase the deities of old and tear down this broken, aging universe. The Truthful Knight (talk) 01:06, December 30, 2016 (UTC) ::: And I've said before that more individualistic is not the same as destroying all ability o work together. Just like Nanashi can be seen as preserving his connection with another as his goddess, despite his own desire for freedom, individuality, and independence, this would be potentially the same for the new humanity. Being more independent doesn't mean they can't work together at some points, and like demons the powers humanity will have some limits. JupiterKnight (talk) 09:36, December 30, 2016 (UTC) SMT II Interview The concept of Observation and Understanding was once brought up in an interview for Shin Megami Tensei II to explain how the Expanse inspired Jewish Mysticism and the Kabbalah. Can anyone provide a citation? I've been trying to find this interview. Matthew Schroeder (talk) 21:31, March 24, 2017 (UTC) :A link can be found at the bottom of the Expanse page in the reference section.JupiterKnight (talk) 22:08, March 25, 2017 (UTC)